Thread Rating:
KevinAA
Slot machines are a popular form of gambling at casinos across the country. According to slotmachines.org, 65 to 75 percent of a casino's action is generated from slot machines. The slot machine is a relatively simple game to play. Generally, you insert a coin, pull a lever and wait for the results. Class III: a catch-all category of games that can’t be considered Class I or II, like slots, roulette, blackjack, etc. Knowing the hurdles Native American casinos faced to allow Class III slots, gaming companies began developing Class II gaming machines: games that play like regular slots but are technically fancy versions of bingo. Sometimes I think I slot hop too much. I have played Wheel of Fortune for over $100 at one sitting and NEVER got a SPIN, while the people on both sides of me, went five and six times each. Almost all slot players are less than lucky most of the time. Most slot-playing sessions end with a loss. The reels and spins just display the outcome of the bingo game. And while that is technically true, if the inner workings of the class II games were made more transparent then it increases the likelihood that the regulators will look more closely at them and possibly classify them as slots not bingo.
I've researched as much as I can about these things but there isn't much out there and my personal experience is not helping either.
Summary: Class II slot machines are found in Indian casinos (Class III is Vegas-style, or RNG). The reason why Class II exists is because originally, Indian casinos were only allowed to offer bingo, including electronic bingo. Modern Class II slot machines look and act just like an RNG slot machine.
At least two people must be playing in order for a Class II machine to run (one time I was unable to play because no one else was there). A bingo server draws a number about once a second. When you hit spin, the computer generates your bingo card and then it goes through all 23 possible winning patterns (22 normal patterns like T, corner spots, diamond, etc., and then this bizarre final 23rd one that a blackout in 75 balls wins a penny). A winning bingo pattern makes the reels stop at just the right spot so you win that much (no different than an RNG slot machine, just a different way of determining whether you win or lose). I read the help files on the machine but it doesn't explain everything. It doesn't explain how you get a red screen. Sometimes when you win, the screen turns red and the reels spin again, and when this happens, you always win something which is more than what you just won (i.e., not a regular free spin which can lose). I have never won a penny (that weird 23rd winning pattern). Probability of winning on a single payline is about 1 in 5 with the distribution of wins similar to an RNG machine, with lots of small wins and few large wins.
I've played these early in the morning when the casino is almost empty and at busy times to see if I can detect any pattern of advantage or disadvantage, and I can't tell. I've won when it's dead and lost when it's dead and I've won when it's busy and lost when it's busy.
Does anyone know if there is a player advantage or disadvantage to playing Class II slot machines when the casino is quiet or busy? Is the probability of winning exactly the same for bet 3 as it is for bet 1? (with the only difference being that the jackpot pays a bigger multiple of bet amt, similar to video poker)
WizardSummary: Class II slot machines are found in Indian casinos (Class III is Vegas-style, or RNG). The reason why Class II exists is because originally, Indian casinos were only allowed to offer bingo, including electronic bingo. Modern Class II slot machines look and act just like an RNG slot machine.
At least two people must be playing in order for a Class II machine to run (one time I was unable to play because no one else was there). A bingo server draws a number about once a second. When you hit spin, the computer generates your bingo card and then it goes through all 23 possible winning patterns (22 normal patterns like T, corner spots, diamond, etc., and then this bizarre final 23rd one that a blackout in 75 balls wins a penny). A winning bingo pattern makes the reels stop at just the right spot so you win that much (no different than an RNG slot machine, just a different way of determining whether you win or lose). I read the help files on the machine but it doesn't explain everything. It doesn't explain how you get a red screen. Sometimes when you win, the screen turns red and the reels spin again, and when this happens, you always win something which is more than what you just won (i.e., not a regular free spin which can lose). I have never won a penny (that weird 23rd winning pattern). Probability of winning on a single payline is about 1 in 5 with the distribution of wins similar to an RNG machine, with lots of small wins and few large wins.
I've played these early in the morning when the casino is almost empty and at busy times to see if I can detect any pattern of advantage or disadvantage, and I can't tell. I've won when it's dead and lost when it's dead and I've won when it's busy and lost when it's busy.
Does anyone know if there is a player advantage or disadvantage to playing Class II slot machines when the casino is quiet or busy? Is the probability of winning exactly the same for bet 3 as it is for bet 1? (with the only difference being that the jackpot pays a bigger multiple of bet amt, similar to video poker)
Administrator
Class Ii Slots Strategy Guide
Thanks for this post from:
I've designed some class II slots so know a fair bit about the regulations and how they are designed. In general, the competitive element of a class II slot accounts for only about 1% of the return. It will generally go to whoever completes a certain pattern first. You could be competing with other players anywhere in the casino or even the world. The competitors may be playing on entirely different themed machines too.
The other 89%, or so, of the return comes from 'consolation prizes,' which are fixed prizes for fixed patterns.
It is that 1% of the competitive element that makes them legal.
In my opinion, if you're going to legalize slots, then just legalize them. Quit kidding yourself that class II slots are really bingo.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
fitzbeanThanks for this post from:
I've designed some class II slots so know a fair bit about the regulations and how they are designed.
In general, the competitive element of a class II slot accounts for only about 1% of the return. It will generally go to whoever completes a certain pattern first. You could be competing with other players anywhere in the casino or even the world. The competitors may be playing on entirely different themed machines too.
The other 89%, or so, of the return comes from 'consolation prizes,' which are fixed prizes for fixed patterns.
It is that 1% of the competitive element that makes them legal.
In my opinion, if you're going to legalize slots, then just legalize them. Quit kidding yourself that class II slots are really bingo.
In general, the competitive element of a class II slot accounts for only about 1% of the return. It will generally go to whoever completes a certain pattern first. You could be competing with other players anywhere in the casino or even the world. The competitors may be playing on entirely different themed machines too.
The other 89%, or so, of the return comes from 'consolation prizes,' which are fixed prizes for fixed patterns.
It is that 1% of the competitive element that makes them legal.
In my opinion, if you're going to legalize slots, then just legalize them. Quit kidding yourself that class II slots are really bingo.
Hey Wizard, I hate to necro this thread, but I was wondering - how is the RTP calculated for class II bingo slots when you never know how many people are going to be competing for that prize? As you mentioned, it's a small portion (1%), but how is that 1% calculated, if it can be? And wouldn't a busy casino theoretically bring down the RTP of the machine? Is there some sort of universal assumption on the average numbers of players that might be in on a game or something?
Thanks so much!
stephencmarvin
Class II slot machines look and act just like an RNG slot machine. Does it similar to skill based gaming machine or slot machines?
Mission146
Class II slot machines look and act just like an RNG slot machine. Does it similar to skill based gaming machine or slot machines?
I would say they operate most similarly to Pace-O-Matic machines. Some other machines just, “Play,” the pre-seeded pool of spins over and over, whereas (from what I can tell from the patents) POM’s randomly select a result from the remaining pool of spins, kind of similarly to the Class II central server.
I also thought POM banks had a linked pool of spins, but that’s apparently not necessarily true is because I found two POMs in one location—one is out of $0.40/bet spins on a particular game and the other isn’t.
Vultures can't be choosers.
Class Ii Slot Strategy
fitzbeanThanks for this post from:
I would say they operate most similarly to Pace-O-Matic machines. Some other machines just, “Play,” the pre-seeded pool of spins over and over, whereas (from what I can tell from the patents) POM’s randomly select a result from the remaining pool of spins, kind of similarly to the Class II central server.
I also thought POM banks had a linked pool of spins, but that’s apparently not necessarily true is because I found two POMs in one location—one is out of $0.40/bet spins on a particular game and the other isn’t.
I also thought POM banks had a linked pool of spins, but that’s apparently not necessarily true is because I found two POMs in one location—one is out of $0.40/bet spins on a particular game and the other isn’t.
I wouldn't say Class II slot machines operate like POMS. The results are actually completely random & based on a math model, just like traditional slots. The difference is that the randomness is not based on where the reels land, it's based on the outcome of the bingo draw. Making it play 'like a slot' as a designer can be challenging because getting the desired volatility etc can be difficult to translate from traditional math models.
Mission146
I wouldn't say Class II slot machines operate like POMS. The results are actually completely random & based on a math model, just like traditional slots. The difference is that the randomness is not based on where the reels land, it's based on the outcome of the bingo draw. Making it play 'like a slot' as a designer can be challenging because getting the desired volatility etc can be difficult to translate from traditional math models.
I agree with you, and that's actually kind of my point. The Class II slot machines randomly choose a result from the, 'Pool,' of remaining results in the central server and POM's do the same exact thing, according to their patent. The difference with POM is that the entire pool of results seems to be exclusive to an individual machine, (or maybe they can sometimes be linked) but either way, it's randomly chosen from the remaining results.
Vultures can't be choosers.
WizardAdministrator
Thanks for this post from:
Hey Wizard, I hate to necro this thread, but I was wondering - how is the RTP calculated for class II bingo slots when you never know how many people are going to be competing for that prize? As you mentioned, it's a small portion (1%), but how is that 1% calculated, if it can be? And wouldn't a busy casino theoretically bring down the RTP of the machine? Is there some sort of universal assumption on the average numbers of players that might be in on a game or something?
Thanks so much!
Thanks so much!
The way it tends to work is the game will group 2 or more players together who made a bet at nearly the same time, say within a second of each other. Then the first player to complete some particular pattern (in the fewest balls) will win a very small prize. I wish I could take it further, but that's about all I know. When I do a class II game, the game maker will somehow tack on a competitive element, I only get asked to do the 'base game.'
Class Ii Slots Strategy No Deposit
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
WizardAdministrator
Thanks for this post from:
Class Ii Slots Strategy Tactics
I would say they operate most similarly to Pace-O-Matic machines. Some other machines just, “Play,” the pre-seeded pool of spins over and over, whereas (from what I can tell from the patents) POM’s randomly select a result from the remaining pool of spins, kind of similarly to the Class II central server.
I also thought POM banks had a linked pool of spins, but that’s apparently not necessarily true is because I found two POMs in one location—one is out of $0.40/bet spins on a particular game and the other isn’t.
I also thought POM banks had a linked pool of spins, but that’s apparently not necessarily true is because I found two POMs in one location—one is out of $0.40/bet spins on a particular game and the other isn’t.
The ones I have seen don't work like that. The outcome is based on a fair bingo card and ball draw. I'm not saying there isn't anywhere that does it the way you describe, but I think I can speak for California (when there were class II), Oklahoma, and New Mexico.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
fitzbeanThanks for this post from:
Class Ii Slots Strategy Games
I agree with you, and that's actually kind of my point. The Class II slot machines randomly choose a result from the, 'Pool,' of remaining results in the central server and POM's do the same exact thing, according to their patent. The difference with POM is that the entire pool of results seems to be exclusive to an individual machine, (or maybe they can sometimes be linked) but either way, it's randomly chosen from the remaining results.
Hmm, as far as I know, Class II (Bingo) slots are not selecting a result from a pool of remaining results or a pool at all. Class II bingo is legal because you are actually playing Bingo behind the scenes, so mechanically, it must actually operate exactly like live bingo.
- Page 1 of 2